Questions and answers
with Patrick Kelly
What have you gained from your years of Taiji work?
Internal evolution is the main result of practise under
the direction of a genuine teacher. Effort and sacrifice is
the cost. In my early twenties, with 10 years training in
Western martial arts, some knowledge of yoga and meditation,
and about to complete my university studies, I made the decision
to concentrate my life on the search for inner meaning and
development. Boxing and wrestling had no depth, Yoga had depth
but was too passive, while meditation lacked balance without
some complimentary training. I tried some of the Japanese
systems but their culturally based severity turned me towards
the Chinese arts, where I began Taiji. Taiji, at least the
teaching of Master Huang Xiangxian, has fulfilled all my expectations
in terms of supporting balanced internal development.
What particular aspects of Taiji really interest you most
today?
Only the mind and beyond interest me.
Teaching how to bring the body under the control of the mind
is my chosen area in which to help people. Personally, as
the mind goes deeper towards its source, my interest is gathered
in by that process. Health and self defence are very minor
interests.
Has your image of Taiji changed much over the past 30 years?
Not really - I began Taiji not having seen it, only knowing
it was one of the internal Chinese Martial Arts which were
based on Daoist principles and that their purpose was internal
development. After meeting one of Master Huang's instructors
who clearly demonstrated knowledge and ability beyond anything
seen in my previous 10 years of research, and then meeting
Master Huang himself, I knew I had found what I was looking
for.
What is your personal teaching philosophy?
It is important to encourage students to make an effort,
both to extend their outer limits and to go deeper inside
themselves. It is important to ensure students understand
why they are practising certain exercises and where those
practices will lead them. Seeing the way ahead and the purpose
in going there, gradually allows them to be less dependent
on myself. This understanding also protects them from being
misled by unscrupulous teachers in the future. It is also
important to recognise the responsibility in becoming a teacher.
Practise is for your own development, while teaching is to
help others. If you practise in order to become a teacher,
or you teach to gain prestige or money, it will neither help
your own internal development nor others.
What are your future plans for teaching in Europe?
From the large numbers who first came to my workshops, I
chose and now concentrate on one hundred students who were
most prepared to train what was being taught. My aim is to
guide them until they can stand independently. If those hundred
can really understand the methods well, find it in their own
bodies and then pass it to their students, we will be free
to concentrate on the deeper aspects. My experience and that
of my teacher, is that it requires about fourteen or fifteen
years consistent training before a student is capable of teaching
independently. I trained under Master Huang for twenty years
until his death in 1992, and that is the basis for the help
I offer. When I first came to Europe the training experience
of many people who were teaching was a little weak as a result
of them jumping around from one teacher to another, then adding
their own bright ideas into the mix. Another common problem
is students who learn for 5 or 6 years then overestimate their
own abilities. When their dubious idea of themselves is challenged,
they get angry, decide I suddenly know nothing, and go off
to teach independently. This is messy for themselves and dangerous
for their students, towards whom I feel some responsability.
My teacher, Master Huang, also had to deal with a long string
of these people.
What are the deeper aspects?
The deeper aspects are of the mind and beyond. There are
three clear levels in Taiji, the body, the mind and beyond
the mind (Spirit). I try to teach people the body level thoroughly,
lead them further into areas of the mind, while steadily introducing
the spiritual aspects.
What are the most important things to train on the different
levels?
The aim is to unite the levels, not to work exclusively on
any one of them. People should first learn how to move smoothly
in their body, then how to release and align, then to find
the forces in the body - combining all these with the mind.
All this is for the mind-body co-ordination. Just body training
barely has any place in Taiji. Then there is training for
mind-energy co-ordination and later for the deepest part of
the mind. Simultaneously the Deep Mind connection with the
Spirit can be allowed to grow.
In terms of the mind, what are you teaching?
P.K.: It is possible to say something but real understanding
comes from training. There is awareness and intention on many
levels from superficial to very deep. Awareness and intention
combine and interact to produce response. Commonly people
train some sort of awareness in Taiji but they seldom train
the intention. Action with awareness implies body active,
mind passive, while action with intention implies mind active,
body passive. The special training of the mind intention (Yi)
was quite deliberately kept secret by the old masters. Master
Huang and Master Ma, for example, kept it just for their inner
school pupils, only passing it on to a few of their thousands
of students. Because of this the method of developing intention
is not usually found in the training either in China or the
West, yet strangely, in the Classics it is stated as the most
important thing. Even when it is taught, students must practise
for a long time before they begin to find it for themselves
and take it deeper.
Can free pushing replace the fixed pattern pushing hands?
It is much better to train the fixed
pattern pushing hands and teach your body and mind, the correct
responses, under controlled conditions. If you practice the
free pushing you just use your existing abilities while attempting
to become faster and stronger. Consequently it fixes these
inefficient habitual responses more solidly in yourself. When
a persons responses have changed to conform to the principles
of Taiji, then gentle controlled free pushing can be used
to enhance the naturalness of these responses.
Please explain the importance of the vertical circle as
opposed to the horizontal circle.
The horizontal circle contains the external movements of
the body which involve repositioning the centre. In the vertical
circle the internal changes take place within the mind and
within the body, producing subtle changes in the height and
vertical forces of the body, while the body makes its external
movements. The internal changes in their simplest form are
contraction which produces movement followed by release which
allows the body to 'swing' or move on under the influence
of momentum and gravity. Because the body works against the
ground to move, contraction produces both a horizontal force
and a vertical one. Faster movements require a greater horizontal
force, which necessitates a stronger vertical force, which
will produce a slight lifting in the body. While moving slowly
in the Taiji Form gravity overcomes this lifting so people
may not become sensitive to it. When people need to move quickly
the vertical force overcomes gravity and will lift the body
slightly, followed by a settling down of the body once the
wave of contraction passes. Many people find this for themselves
and Zheng Manjing mentioned it in one of this books, but this
second phase of releasing or swing has 3 hidden phases that
people seldom understand.
Please explain the different states of the muscles and how
they affect the forces in the body.
The muscles cycle through contract, release, stretch and
un-stretch, while the mind has its corresponding cycle of
concentrate, relax, sink and empty, plus a neutral state for
both giving 5 phases. Practical understanding of this only
comes from long study. This cycle of mind and body is the
basis of all Master Huang taught me in my 20 years learning
under his direction. If you don't understand the five states
then it's difficult to find the relaxed elastic force of Taiji.
It's commonly taught that there are just the two muscle states
of contraction and relax. If you only know these two you will
be stuck on the pairs of opposites, the Yin and the Yang.
If you only consider, or attempt to combine these two as in
first contract and then relax, or partly relaxed, partly contracted,
then the search for the relaxed elastic force of Taiji is
doomed to failure. Stretching and un-stretching are seldom
talked about or understood. The corresponding changes in the
state of the mind are even more obscure.
Please explain the different mind states to train in the
form?
No, I can't really explain that. They need to be trained
with a person who understands them. I can say, people first
have to listen very closely to their body. Its not the normal
listening which is from the superficial mind. Look for genuine
body sensations such as warmth, pressure and non-visual body
positioning.. This is the first step and it is considerably
different from the feeling type of awareness that the average
Taiji person trains. Merely increasing concentration on the
level of normal daily awareness is a false method which just
makes it more difficult to go deeper later on. Unfortunately,
many modern systems of meditation teach people to value and
strengthen just this superficial awareness. The ego observes
the superficial perceptions, vision, hearing etc. and feels
it sees reality 'just as it is'. It is not a true path. Each
of my teachers spoke of this error, and my experience confirms
what they said. On every level of Taiji there is the paradox
of letting go and keeping control.
What are your thoughts about this and what ways of working
with this do you recommend?
Central to Taiji is the paradox of how to combine the yin
and the yang, e.g. Contract/release or control/naturalness.
What we are looking for is not more yin or yang, or a mixture,
but something new. You could call it yin-yang, as one thing.
It seems like a mixture of the two, but it is something different,
a third thing that is produced. Its never a matter of one
is right and the other is wrong, but the simultaneous combination
of the two produces something more subtle. When producing
Taiji force (jin) there is drawing in and sending out at the
same time. The state of stretching is actually a new state
that's produced within the muscle. The stretching allows the
yielding and at the same time produces a force, it's not a
simple combination of contracting and relaxing either in time
or space. The same with letting go and keeping control. The
letting go that interferes with keeping control, is not the
letting go that you need. The keeping control that interferes
with letting go is not the control that you need. You must
find that which simultaneously allows an increasing control
and an increasing letting go.
Why is it important to align the body?
It's important to align, at the time of forces passing through
the body. It's not necessary to align when you are just relaxing.
Aligning creates a line of connection from the ground to the
point of application which allows the forces to pass through
the body without producing contraction, resistance or pain.
A straight and vertical spine for example, allows the strongest
vertical forces to rise from the ground. Usually as people
get older their spine becomes less flexible and the curves
increase causing problems with the disks. Releasing and aligning
within the Form and auxiliary exercises can reverse this process.
What is the importance of forming a good base?
Internal forces of Taiji work up and down from the ground.
Without a good base people can't find these forces and will
never escape using upper-body strength and weight, signalled
by leaning and excessive movement when issuing force. Only
when the body is stable can you really loosen the upper-body
and find the vertical circle. Only when the body is extremely
stable can you concentrate the mind deeply while in the midst
of action.
Why is it important for the body to be loose?
When babies are born they are already loose, but they don't
know how to move. The first thing they learn in order to survive,
is a reasonable ability to move the body, which involves contraction.
Everybody learns that but they may never learn how to release.
Consequently, residual contraction remains and accumulates
in the body so that when they become older their whole body
becomes tight and locked. As an antidote, people first need
to learn how to release these residual, habitual contractions.
Then, once they make a contraction, how to release it fully,
immediately afterwards. Residual contractions block the blood
flow and energy flow, as well as interfering with subsequent
movements. Certainly when the forces flow from the ground
through the body, it is necessary to be able to release previous
contractions completely to allow the semi-automatic stretching
and un-stretching to take place.
Why is accuracy in the form important?
The main reason is to train the mind/body control on the
initial level. This is achieved by accurate positioning of
the body according to a clear intention of the mind, either
the stored memory of the position, or a fresh intention at
that moment. With beginners, the mind intends one thing and
the body does something different. Accuracy is the first step
in practising mind/body control, as well as the first step
in finding the types of position that allow a greater transmission
of forces to and from the ground.
Can you talk about your main teachers Patrick?
When beginning on the path, it became obvious that I needed
to find a teacher who really knew what they were about in
a spiritual sense. I began Master Huang's Taiji and shortly
after began training with a Sufi teacher. He was a sheikh
in the Nasqabandi tradition from Afghanistan, drawing also
partly on the Gurdjieff tradition. I continued to train with
these two people until their deaths (Master Huang in 1992;
the Sufi in 1987). Other teachers who have had some influence
are an old yogi who lives in the desert in India, whom I visit
from time to time, and an old Daoist sage who is hidden in
China and unknown in the West. Master Ma Yueliang, who stayed
in NZ for 6 months and whom I later visited in China, helped
me also and I have kept close contact for the past 15 years
with Master Ni Hua Ching who knew Yang Shou Hou and Yang Cheng
Fu and was a good friend of Zheng Manjing. These teachers
all pushed me to teach. Without their mandate I wouldn't be
so bold as to direct other people in their lives.
To come back to the Taiji practise - what is the purpose
of pushing hands?
Pushing hands is for sensitivity, the Form is to train internal
strength. This is their original purpose but poorly trained
students reverse this, training the Form lightly with awareness
but no intention looking for sensitivity, then using strength
combined with elementary mechanics in the pushing hands in
an attempt to find internal strength. Pushing hands teaches
you to expand and extend your awareness to include others.
It allows you to practise awareness of, and a correct response
to the partners intention whereas in the Form it is your intention
that produces the movement in response to the stored body
memory of the sequence. Over time and with the correct method
you become sensitive to the intention to move in the partner's
body, energy field and mind. Pushing hands is also a teaching
method where the students can interact with the teacher and
learn from that contact.
Have you competed in a push hands contest? How do you feel
about competitions?
I have never competed in a pushing hands contest, but in
the Chinese world when you push hands it tends to be very
competitive, remembering that most students and teachers in
Asia have, at best, learnt in the 'outer schools' of the good
masters. In Asia we would often go to the parks on the weekend
where there would be Taiji people from many different schools
meeting. Though our intention was to learn, this situation
was extremely competitive. In China when I visited various
teachers, it was often taken mistakenly as a challenge, and
serious pushing hands would be difficult to escape. I have
watched competitions and they appear to produce and stimulate
the worst aspects of Taiji. What people are doing, the competitiveness
and desperate trying to win, is against the basic principles.
I don't believe people learn much of worth from it. Some people
feel they learn to handle an aggressive energy or an aggressive
situation but I observe people just become more competitive
themselves. The aggressive situation stimulates aggressiveness
so it achieves the exact opposite of what people imagine.
Pushy people feel justified in their behaviour and rise through
the ranks of the organisations that convene the contests,
perpetuating these patterns of behaviour.
Why is it necessary to develop the deep mind?
The superficial mind, or normal daily awareness is basically
brain consciousness. The real mind, in all its parts, exists
in the energy field, not in the brain. When you die the superficial
mind is gone with the brain, but the deeper aspects of the
mind still exist and operate on three different levels. There
is the mind connected with the body, the mind connected with
the energy field and then there is the intelligence of the
mind. The Deep Mind Intelligence functions through these three
aspects. It connects into the brain and body through these
3 aspects, but is quite different from the brain. The Deep
Mind, which includes the deeper parts of the energy field,
is your real individual self. It's born in a body to develop
its energy field and its associated intelligence's. That is
the purpose of life. Not remembering this, you waste your
lifetime.
So you would say it's the main purpose in training Taiji?
The classics say the main purpose in training Taiji is to
achieve longevity, which in the Daoist teaching means immortality
or the ability to survive after death in your diamond body.
The Buddhists talk of enlightenment which means to create
a body of light for the same purpose. After death you live
on in your energy body one way or another. If your energy
body is strengthened and refined through correct effort during
your lifetime then the deeper aspects of yourself become independent
from the body, immune from death in your crystallised energy
body. If you haven't achieved that, then you either gradually
fade from all individual existence or return in a body to
try again to escape the rounds of life and deaths. This is
the truth of life. It is well understood by all real teachers.
Other purposes for Taiji are minor ones, created by people
in normal life, usually to nurse the body and make it more
comfortable, or to attain fighting power and the dubious respect
that confers. Unfortunately concentrating on health or self-defence
may just make the mind more attached to the body, strengthen
the ego and block internal development.
How can those interested in your concepts make contact with
your teaching.
I don't advertise widely, but there is enough information
around, such as this interview, my books and my students who
teach. If a person is really interested, if they make some
effort to look and if there is some inner resonance with the
teaching, then the opportunity to make contact will no doubt
be arranged by their own Deep Mind... |
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